Curse

Tiyuri · Feb 10, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

I've seen a lot of posts regarding the gimmicks being prevalent in the new 8v8. A lot of the posts I've read seem like quick off the cuff judgements from player's who've entered HA, died to a Ritualist spike, rage quit and come to post on the forums about their experience.

Here are some things to consider before asking for 6v6 to return.

When any major change is made to a game type, a new meta evolves with it. The beginning of that meta - in every case of major mechanical changes thus far - has been one of players using yesterday's builds whilst they wait for more intelligent players to come up with new gimmicks for them to play.

Some examples were very obvious in the change to 6v6, despite the change, the initial few days were full of people attempting to run IWAY, ViM, 6 Man Necro spike. Builds that basically didn't work anymore, but the only builds some people knew how to run. The same is true here in 8v8.

I came to HA ID1 last night and saw an incredible number of unranked/rank 3 players attempting to run an IWAY. IWAY had actually died at the end of 8v8 due to the nerf to EoE and tigers fury. Yet people were attempting to run it now. IWAY has only been damaged more since, steady stance warriors can't even catch you, eviscerate was even nerfed a little. But these people still attempted to run it simply because they didn't know what else to run.

The same is undoubtedly true of blood spike, rit spike(a 6v6 build) and rangerspike. Builds people are playing whilst they wait for more intelligent players to think up the builds that define the new meta. So my message here is wait and see, you might not like the meta now but let it evolve and see what happens. Amusingly enough I actually saw a bunch of teams attempting to run VIM, despite the fact VIM has been completely ruined to the point of being unusable in a previous skill update.

That said, certain skills being abused right now do need a looking at. Ritualist spike is almost certainly overpowered, it CAN be countered but so can everything if you spec specifically for it. Rit spike can spike more often than old school rangerspike (that was nerfed accordingly) and does around 1000 damage on the spike. It has more defence than Ranger spike has ever had and it's equally difficult to interrupt the spikers, perhaps more so if you take into account they can spike so frequently and do not require all their spikers spiking to make a kill. On top of this they have endless defensive spirits loading their necro healers with energy.

This is certainly something Anet needs to look at, but does a single overpowered build define the playability of a gametype?

Can we say "8v8 sucks because Ritualist spike is overpowered"?

Every new meta requires skill balances, this should be no suprise.

The only other problem so far for myself is the kill count maps, these maps put way too much emphasis on spiking. So much so in fact that these maps pretty much brought about ritualist spike in 6v6, which was equally as deadly, if not more so - due to the fact that balances teams can not fit counters on their bar. It's very easy for a rit spike to spike a team, perhaps the team with the least interrupts, then run away for the rest of the game, picking off kills here and there.

Whilst this is a valid strategy, it leads to spike teams being somewhat unbeatable, aoe spikes are especially powerful here, as attempting to chase the spike team often leads to the chasing team balling up. This on top of teams "farming" the least skilled team on the field, and teaming up to gank players out of the match leads to a broken gametype, where the ability to win or lose isn't solely in your teams hands, but the decision a second team decides to make. Relying on that is frustrating at best.

I actually had a 1v1 match on broken tower last night, it was a lot of fun, even though my pug actually lost that round. I'd suggest 1v1 should be the future of broken tower. Whilst the 3way courtyard is OK due to the necessity to protect your priest.

Overall, 6v6 has its gimmicks, 8v8 has its gimmicks. Both have spikes, both have builds that require very little of the people playing it but are very effective.

The one, big, huge, enormous difference is. I can run balanced in 8v8 and actually fit enough on my bars to counter those gimmicks. I ended up winning 90% of my guild group matches with a completely balanced build and I actually enjoyed myself in HA for the first time in a very very long time.

Dancing Blade · Feb 10, 2007, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Although there are gimmicks builds in both 6v6 and 8v8 they generally grow stronger with increasing playercount if there's no possibility to split (especially spike, aoe and soulreaping abusing ones).

Imo the 6v6 format fits the small maps in ha better making for a more balanced gameplay. Builds like jagged bones can always be fixed by skill updates but you cant fix 6-7 man spikes (flawed game mechanic) without making the damage skills useless in non spike builds.

Tiyuri · Feb 10, 2007, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancing Blade

Although there are gimmicks builds in both 6v6 and 8v8 they generally grow stronger with increasing playercount if there's no possibility to split (especially spike, aoe and soulreaping abusing ones).

Imo the 6v6 format fits the small maps in ha better making for a more balanced gameplay. Builds like jagged bones can always be fixed by skill updates but you cant fix 6-7 man spikes (flawed game mechanic) without making the damage skills useless in non spike builds.

You can have as many blood spikers as you want as long as I have the means to interrupt them. Gimmicks were more powerful in 6v6 simply because there were no room for counters.

Randomway Ftw · Feb 10, 2007, 06:41 PM // 18:41

I know I may seem like a broken record, but I think broken tower, courtyard and halls, should be reverted back to their original altar map objectives, because of the type of trash encouraged by kill count.

"Please don't say omg teh lame holding builds will dominate!1!!!!1", I know for a fact that that was not the case in original 8v8.

Dancing Blade · Feb 10, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

You can have as many blood spikers as you want as long as I have the means to interrupt them. Gimmicks were more powerful in 6v6 simply because there were no room for counters.

That argument is false. Former 8v8 balanced consisted of 3 monk backlines while 6v6 balanced had 2 monks which means you have 1 more slot for utility in 8v8 while the gimmick has 2 more slots for their spike/whatever.

Also bringing 1 char to counter a certain gimmick makes your build weaker vs other gimmicks overall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

I know I may seem like a broken record, but I think broken tower, courtyard and halls, should be reverted back to their original altar map objectives, because of the type of trash encouraged by kill count.

"Please don't say omg teh lame holding builds will dominate!1!!!!1", I know for a fact that that was not the case in original 8v8.

If you can't see why holding was bad for the game you imho have not enough understanding of the game to make suggestions on map objectives and game mechanics.

Tiyuri · Feb 10, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancing Blade

That argument is false. Former 8v8 balanced consisted of 3 monk backlines while 6v6 balanced had 2 monks which means you have 1 more slot for utility in 8v8 while the gimmick has 2 more slots for their spike/whatever.

Also bringing 1 char to counter a certain gimmick makes your build weaker vs other gimmicks overall.

We ran 2 wars, 2 MoR mesmers with cry + powerdrain, 3 monks, snare/KD/ward ele. We had a enchant removal, wards, snares, interrupts, pressure, gale, diversion, a spike, condition removal, hex removal, shutdown, lots of healing, lots of prot, you name it.

And we had no problem beating anything.

Go figure.

Dancing Blade · Feb 10, 2007, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

We ran 2 wars, 2 MoR mesmers with cry + powerdrain, 3 monks, snare/KD/ward ele. We had a lot of damage, a lot of utility, a lot of interrupts, a lot of pressure, a massive spike. We had no trouble beating anything.

That's not even an argument but a subjective statement basically saying you like 8vs8 better because you had a direct casterspike counterbuild at some time during 8v8 that you owned with. Probably at the end when bloodspike was the dominant build and HA was dead alrdy (which was why Anet changed it to 6v6). I can't really see that build winning in "oldschool" Tombs against Spiritspam, Power's Rpike, ER Smite or iA's Rspike... I can understand that you personally like 8vs8 better that doesn't has to mean that 8vs8 is the more balanced game mode.

Tiyuri · Feb 10, 2007, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancing Blade

That's not even an argument but a subjective statement basically saying you like 8vs8 better because you had a direct casterspike counterbuild at some time during 8v8 that you owned with.

Here's where you're completely wrong, it's not "casterspike counter build", it's just a build full of a trillion utility skills, whilst keeping its damage, keeping its defense. It counters everything if you have the skill to play it.

This kind of build is 8v8's saving grace, both 6v6 and 8v8 have gimmicks, 8v8 allows talented players who like to run balanced the ability to counter all of those gimmicks in a single build, eliminating the rock paper scissors effect if they have the skill to pull it off.

Quote:

I can't really see that build winning in "oldschool" Tombs against Spiritspam, Power's Rpike, ER Smite or iA's Rspike... I can understand that you personally like 8vs8 better that doesn't has to mean that 8vs8 is the more balanced game mode.

Nothing beat old school spirit spam, it was the most overpowered thing ever to grace guildwars and was totally destroyed for a reason.

It's easily capable of beating anyones rspike, a cry every 5 seconds? A bunch of diversions, gales, etc?

ER smite? It has enchant removal and snares.

You see?

ss1986v2 · Feb 10, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

while i have no personal preference between 8v8 and 6v6, i would have to say that at least with 8v8, balanced has a chance. in 6v6, you just didnt have enough skill slots to bring all the offense/defense/utility that was needed to counter the FoTMs. in 8v8, you have a chance. you can bring enough general counters (diversion/interrupts/snares/spikes/wards/enchant removal), which work against most all builds, that with a high enough skill level, you can beat out some of the gimmick builds. in 6v6 your only alternative was to also run a gimmick build, which just plays into the whole rock, paper, scissors aspect.

just my two cents...

Tucks · Feb 10, 2007, 10:07 PM // 22:07

I have to agree that 6v6 downplayed the "balanced" aspect of playing, in 8v8 with two good teams facing each other with balanced, they actively try to outplay each other. The players had a broad range of utility skills and would use them to create a way to take down a team. A gimmick should never win vs a decent HA balanced, because played right it is extremely versatile and strong, but the reason gimmicks are popular is because they are easier to run and will farm other gimmicks and new, inexperienced teams.

All teams need to do in 6v6 is put together a build with a lot of damage, some defense and then hit each other until one side eventually collapsed. There was little use of utility involved. I actually got flamed for running a build in 6v6 that had little damage but a lot of utility, and teams were furious that were were picking apart their teams with this utility, allowing our small amount of damage to be far more effective.

Epic Monkey Battle · Feb 11, 2007, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancing Blade

That argument is false. Former 8v8 balanced consisted of 3 monk backlines while 6v6 balanced had 2 monks which means you have 1 more slot for utility in 8v8 while the gimmick has 2 more slots for their spike/whatever.

Also bringing 1 char to counter a certain gimmick makes your build weaker vs other gimmicks overall.

It still gives you 2 extra slots, that's the point. There is no rule that says "You must run a 3 monk back-line in a balanced group."

If you did bring a 3 monk backline, chances are you are bringing two prot monks (prot > heal) which allows you to bring Divert Hexes and RC. Which would be effective against hex/condition pressure and also allows you to bring prot spirit and spirit bond. Now you would take 2 melee charachters (we are now at 5/8 btw), now lets add a warder to be consistent with 6v6. That brings us up to 6/8. Already we have counters for condition/hex pressure, 2 prots to pre-prot for spikes, with a 3rd monk with infuse. We have melee pressure. Now we have 2 more slots left for utility. Lets add a PD mesmer and introduce him to the other team's warder or a spike of his/her choice. And then for that last spot lets add in a crip shot ranger for snares and interupts/contion spread.

Now lets compare that to a 6v6 balanced.

n 6v6 generally with a 2 monk back line you were usually forced to decide between RC or Divert Hexes on your prot monk, so you have the option of stopping a condition pressure or hex pressure (one less thing countered from the 3 monk backline of 8v8). Then your heal/infuse monk.
I don't think I saw many teams with out a warder. Then you had 2 melee in most 6v6 balanced builds (RaO thumpers...). Now you have your 1 utilty spot.

So is it really only gaining one "utility" slot over 6v6, when I have so many more counters?

Rey Lentless · Feb 11, 2007, 09:15 AM // 09:15

I agree completely with Tiyuri.

8v8 simply allows balanced to be back. I think he made most of the points associated with this. I've already seen this translate to that quite a bit and I think it's great.

I also think that the varied win conditions in hoh itself has improved and promoted offensive builds. I never liked 'holding' builds that just stuffed as much possible defense in as could be had, and then was content to just not die for 10 minutes. There have been numbers of mechanic and skill changes that have nerfed certain holding strategies (from healing ball, multiple spirits of the same type, spirits effecting other spirits, laying spirits in range of other teams fighting to prolong their fight, etc), but essentially HoH came down to that. Get to the last map w/ as much defense as possible and outlast the other teams.

I think that change along with 8v8 has and will make it much more fun.

When it comes down to it, wouldn't most of us prefer a game that's about adjusting, reacting, making in game decisions.. (ie.. skill) that decide who wins and loses.. as opposed to mindlessly mashing buttons on your bar that corresponds to whatever 'way' build you're running and hoping that the team you're up against isn't the rock to your scissors.

masta_yoda · Feb 11, 2007, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

I know I may seem like a broken record, but I think broken tower, courtyard and halls, should be reverted back to their original altar map objectives, because of the type of trash encouraged by kill count.

"Please don't say omg teh lame holding builds will dominate!1!!!!1", I know for a fact that that was not the case in original 8v8.

yep couldnt agree more...
because of kill count literally every team is running some kind of spike
and in a worse case scenario 2 spike teams in 3 way. Makes it almost impossible for the non spike to win.
i say make it oldschool 8v8 for a week and see if there is any difference or make at least broken tower a 1v1 map cause that map just favors the spike team who just picks on the weaker team constantly.
Im a big old school 8v8 supporter but unless 8v8 goes back to old school with a skill balance 6v6 would probably be better then the current 8v8

s w o r d y · Feb 11, 2007, 09:43 PM // 21:43

could HA get any sadder

8v8 with these maps, the skill choices available is just the worst arena in Guild Wars

Current maps are better balanced with smaller numbers

If you want 8 per team, new maps is a must. What I've seen in Ha this weekend is very very sad

Nadia Roark · Feb 11, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epic Monkey Battle

If you did bring a 3 monk backline, chances are you are bringing two prot monks (prot > heal) which allows you to bring Divert Hexes and RC...

While I agree that it's better to run 2 prots and 1 heal (rather than the other way around), Divert Hexes is a poor choice imo. Try running a ZB and a RC, with one or both of them carrying a Purge Signet. If you know how to use Purge Signet correctly there is absolutely no reason to waste an elite on Divert Hexes. Also, if you're running GoLE + Aegis (which is a good idea with two prots), Glyph+ZB is suddenly remarkably superior to channeling in terms of energy management. Got a guy who's <50% health? Here; have ten energy! I've been running the Glyph/Aegis/ZB bar for a while now and I'm literally beside myself at how easy it is to keep my energy up.

Divert has fallen more or less off the face of the meta (except in paraspikes, which curiously I have yet to play against) largely because of the jagged/hexspam nerf. I used it a lot at first, but after a thorough evaluation I've decided that Purge Sig is far superior. The recharge is kinda a kick in the pants, but it's not meant to remove every hex--you just have to have a team that knows what the important hexes are and that they need to call them.

lishi · Feb 11, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

While I agree that it's better to run 2 prots and 1 heal (rather than the other way around), Divert Hexes is a poor choice imo. Try running a ZB and a RC, with one or both of them carrying a Purge Signet. If you know how to use Purge Signet correctly there is absolutely no reason to waste an elite on Divert Hexes. Also, if you're running GoLE + Aegis (which is a good idea with two prots), Glyph+ZB is suddenly remarkably superior to channeling in terms of energy management. Got a guy who's <50% health? Here; have ten energy! I've been running the Glyph/Aegis/ZB bar for a while now and I'm literally beside myself at how easy it is to keep my energy up.

Divert has fallen more or less off the face of the meta (except in paraspikes, which curiously I have yet to play against) largely because of the jagged/hexspam nerf. I used it a lot at first, but after a thorough evaluation I've decided that Purge Sig is far superior. The recharge is kinda a kick in the pants, but it's not meant to remove every hex--you just have to have a team that knows what the important hexes are and that they need to call them.

i think the kind of monk backline really depends on the current metagame.

for example on the pre6v6 metagame (the old 8v8) 2 healer 1 prot was mostly used not because we was more noob before , but because between OoA , BloodSpike , Hex degens team ,vimway etc... 2 healer worked better then 2 prot monk

Snype · Feb 12, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancing Blade

That argument is false. Former 8v8 balanced consisted of 3 monk backlines while 6v6 balanced had 2 monks which means you have 1 more slot for utility in 8v8 while the gimmick has 2 more slots for their spike/whatever.

Also bringing 1 char to counter a certain gimmick makes your build weaker vs other gimmicks overall.

If you can't see why holding was bad for the game you imho have not enough understanding of the game to make suggestions on map objectives and game mechanics.

The choking gas ranger used to be a great counter to spike builds. This worked against 90% of the other non-gimmick or gimmick builds such whether it went on the WoH monk, the OoA necro, or the ghost on any altar maps.
Versus Iway, a lot of groups used to bring a Spiteful Spirit necro. These once again worked on any attacking or casting characters on a team.

Holding is one of the major traditions of HA/tombs. Part of the fun of playing in Halls is the goal of (maybe) holding for a couple of rounds. Now granted, this does not mean that any build should be allowed to be able to hold for 20-30 times (such as VERY OLD spirit spam...aka Sissy Boys, Ascalon Electric Company, etc.) I think with good skill balancing, extreme holding builds can be avoided, while keeping the fun of holding alive.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 12, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snype

The choking gas ranger used to be a great counter to spike builds. This worked against 90% of the other non-gimmick or gimmick builds such whether it went on the WoH monk, the OoA necro, or the ghost on any altar maps.
Versus Iway, a lot of groups used to bring a Spiteful Spirit necro. These once again worked on any attacking or casting characters on a team.

Holding is one of the major traditions of HA/tombs. Part of the fun of playing in Halls is the goal of (maybe) holding for a couple of rounds. Now granted, this does not mean that any build should be allowed to be able to hold for 20-30 times (such as VERY OLD spirit spam...aka Sissy Boys, Ascalon Electric Company, etc.) I think with good skill balancing, extreme holding builds can be avoided, while keeping the fun of holding alive.

The choking gas ranger was people wanting to have practiced stance for seeking arrows for interrupting ghostlies and therefore trying to find a way that the character could do something moderately useful along the way. Any ranger (cripshot, burning arrows, melandru's) with both savage and distracting shot was as good of a counter to spikes as the cg ranger. In fact, any competant ranger with savage and distracting could be more effective than the cg ranger, considering that choking gas would prevent the side-effects of dshot from working.

Holding is worthless. I don't find trying to stuff as much defense into every build as humanely possible and still be able to make kills fun at all, in fact, I find it boring as hell. At this point, you can still "hold" halls if you're good enough, you just have to have a build that can do each of the 3 gametypes well and you have to have players that know what they're doing.

Snype · Feb 12, 2007, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

The choking gas ranger was people wanting to have practiced stance for seeking arrows for interrupting ghostlies and therefore trying to find a way that the character could do something moderately useful along the way. Any ranger (cripshot, burning arrows, melandru's) with both savage and distracting shot was as good of a counter to spikes as the cg ranger. In fact, any competant ranger with savage and distracting could be more effective than the cg ranger, considering that choking gas would prevent the side-effects of dshot from working.

Holding is worthless. I don't find trying to stuff as much defense into every build as humanely possible and still be able to make kills fun at all, in fact, I find it boring as hell. At this point, you can still "hold" halls if you're good enough, you just have to have a build that can do each of the 3 gametypes well and you have to have players that know what they're doing.

can you further explain how interupting 1 or 2 spikers is better then interupting 6?

Patccmoi · Feb 12, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snype

can you further explain how interupting 1 or 2 spikers is better then interupting 6?

Against what team quality are you playing where a spike team facing a CG ranger balls up to all be adjacent? CG ranger was there for Seeking Arrows seriously when it came to good guilds using it, and for PuGs it also came from the fact that it's a really easy build to play as opposed to an interrupt ranger which actually requires a lot of skill and timing if you're not just spamming interrupts blindly.

Honestly i think that if one thing has to stay, it's HoH random game type. This is a BIG step in the good direction because this discourages builds to be able to prepare for just one thing (holding) and hope for skips.

What needs to be changed is something about the kill counts in other maps to not favor spike builds so heavily. In HoH it's not that relevant as it's just 1/4 game type, 1 of the others actually discouraging spike builds if anything (AB-style). Problem is with spike teams being so strong in kill count maps and kill count maps being the 2 major 'elimination' maps (since they're 3 ways). Others being 1v1 don't favor spike builds in particular as a good balanced setup can prepare to handle spikes.